Interview - Brooklin Myers - Elixir Newbie Podcast

I’m delighted to be speaking with Brooklin Myers, creator of the newly-created ‘Elixir Newbie Podcast’

You can check out Episode 1 here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rN2gdn7hRJGDPAT862HXq

Hayden: Hey Brooklin, thank you for taking the time to speak with me about all things Elixir & I’d like to start by saying... congratulations on the launch of your new podcast, you’re definitely a natural, I expect this to be a successful venture for you. I’m also a big fan of the opening jingle, very catchy!

To give some context, would you mind taking a moment to introduce your own background & how you got into Elixir?

Brooklin: Hi Hayden, Thank you so much for the kind words and for having me. As it says in the podcast, I am an Elixir Newbie. I’ve been programming since about 2018 In JavaScript. But, last May, I started diving into Elixir and writing about what I learned. Soon after that, I got my first Elixir job creating a Phoenix app to help international students apply for universities abroad. Even more recently, I started the podcast. Both writing and podcasting started as personal learning projects to apply what I was learning and teach it. To my surprise, both received attention in the Elixir Community and seem to scratch an itch for approachable Elixir content. I’m learning in public. That’s it.

Hayden: It’s awesome to see everything documented, I’m sure plenty of people will appreciate it! As you mentioned in Episode 1, there is a wealth of podcasts available for experienced Elixir devs but somewhat of a void when it comes to discussion at entry/beginner level.

Why do you think this topic is being neglected by the community? & why do you think it’s so crucial for us to draw more newbies to Elixir?

Brooklin: Right now, entering programming, and Elixir, more specifically, feels like hacking your way through a thick vine-filled swamp only to find a well-traveled concrete road at the end of it. Once you have your first job in the industry, the hardest part is over. It seems to me that Elixir drew a following of incredibly talented developers, who made an incredible ecosystem and community, but who were already far down the path in their software career. This created a general assumption that anyone consuming Elixir content already has a programming background. Investing in new developers is an investment in our future. It benefits the newbies by helping them get into a potentially fulfilling career. However, it also allows companies and experienced software engineers to grow capable future employees and coworkers. That’s my pitch for why other developers and companies should care, but my motivation is gratitude. I’m grateful a friend helped me get into the industry. I want other people to have the chance as well. Hayden: You mentioned in one of your blog posts that ‘Getting to the first rung of the ladder is hard’, as an ‘Agency Recruiter’ in the Elixir market, I’m very rarely asked to find Junior candidates, especially for remote positions… but I’ve also worked as an ‘Internal Recruiter’ for Elixir roles & we received an abundance of applications from candidates straight from Universities & Bootcamps, but the majority didn’t include any Github links to personal projects or a cover letter showing a keen interest in Elixir... it’s something I’d always recommend doing if you’re looking to get your foot in the door & get that all important production experience, sometimes your application can be seen amongst 20 others, it’s good to make it stand out.

Would you be able to share some advice for jobseekers that haven’t been able to get their foot on the ladder just yet? Brooklin: Everyone wants senior developers. No one wants to take on the risk of hiring juniors. Hiring only senior developers creates a negative feedback loop that leads to even fewer senior developers. If you are less experienced, you’ll have a hard time competing in positions open to anyone. You can be pre-filtered before you get a chance to show your potential. Instead, make friends in the community. Many companies don’t want to go through an arduous hiring process, so plenty of jobs don’t get advertised. Instead, they prefer to hire people they already know. Someone who likes you is more willing to overlook your lack of experience and hire you for your potential. Ignore people telling you they “applied to 100 jobs before finally receiving an offer”. I suspect that means you’re doing something wrong, Not that you need to persevere. Speaking with someone like yourself can help them figure out what’s wrong with their approach.

There’s a lot more actionable advice I hope to go into on the podcast. But, for now, consider writing on a blog site like medium.com. Write about what you learn. It helps you learn faster, takes less time than creating a side project, and is a great way to stand out.

Hayden: I definitely agree, I look forward to hearing you dive deeper into it on the podcast! On another note, I asked the community for common Elixir myths, Szymon tweeted that ‘it’s hard to learn’ (& that he thinks it’s totally the opposite)

I know you agree with him… but why is that? What do you think has caused the misconception?

Brooklin: Functional Programming has an image problem of being harder than Object-Oriented Programming. Unfortunately, Elixir inherits this image problem. However, the language itself is perfect for newbies and makes it easier for them to adopt best practices like testing. The Elixir ecosystem is less bloated than others. The community has done a better job of standardizing. As a result, the learning path is far more straightforward and manageable.

However, there is one piece of truth to the statement. We have fewer resources tailored towards newbies with no programming experience. That’s temporary, though, and something I hope the podcast and resources other folks are putting out will solve.

Hayden: The next ‘common myth’ was from ‘me’, not literally me, that’s their Twitter handle… they said ‘it’s a niche language’, I’m not 100% sure I agree with this one, personally I feel it is still niche, especially compared to the likes of Ruby, Javascript, Java etc… but it’s definitely catching up, you mentioned in the podcast that whilst there are less opportunities, it gives you much less competition, I really identified with that as there are only a handful of recruiters that I would consider as specialists in the Elixir market, what kind of impact do you think this has on newbies when choosing a language?

Brooklin: I’d say that Elixir itself is a general-purpose language, even if it’s only being used for niche circumstances currently, which you could make an argument for why that’s not the case either. However, with regards to opportunity, you’re entirely correct. I’ve experienced the same starting the podcast. It’s easier to stand out in a smaller community. Companies are already hiring developers without Elixir experience. I’ve noticed our job postings seem a lot less ludicrous than in other languages (no expectations of 5+ years experience for a junior developer position). It’s easier to stand out and be a qualified candidate.

On top of that, In general, Elixir attracts people who specifically want to work with Elixir. My intuition is that newbies will have an easier time finding mentors passionate about learning and growing.

Hayden: The StackOverflow survey shows that Elixir is one of the Top 3 highest paid languages, what impact do you think this has on newbies joining?

Brooklin: It’s fantastic that Elixir is getting the recognition it deserves. However, I suspect this speaks more to having fewer juniors to balance out the average than Elixir paying more than other jobs. When I heard about the survey, it stood out as one data point for why there’s a need for more newbie-focused Elixir resources.

Hayden: I see you’re based in Montreal, what’s your opinion of the Beam market in Canada? Is there much demand?

Brooklin: I’m working with a Canadian-based company, so I’ve been able to find work. I couldn’t speak from a data-driven perspective, so I’ll refrain from speculating about the larger industry. Canada is limited in general when compared to the USA, so it’s not an Elixir-specific issue. However, we live in an increasingly distributed world. Your local job market doesn’t limit you. If you’re willing to consider remote work, then there are plenty of opportunities out there.

Hayden: Final question, one of my favourite podcasts, The Weekly Planet, has a segment called ‘What are you reading, what are you gonna read?’, so I’ll ask you the question?... :)

Brooklin: I’m currently finishing up Testing Elixir: Effective and Robust Testing for Elixir and its Ecosystem by Andrea Leopardi and Jeffrey Matthias. It’s been the inspiration for more than a few blog posts and Twitter threads. I met Jeffrey online at one of his talks and he’s been incredibly kind and hugely inspirational to me for learning how to test Elixir. Next up is Elixir in Action by Sasa Juric, which I’ve started and am enjoying.

Hayden: Fantastic recommendations! It’s been a pleasure to discuss this with you, thank you so much for your time, I’m sure we’ll catch up again soon!